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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Carlsen-Lagrave: Taimanov update (Read 9620 times)
Willempie
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Re: Carlsen-Lagrave: Taimanov update
Reply #17 - 02/05/07 at 10:00:01
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g3g6 wrote on 02/02/07 at 20:10:48:
My mistake, i apologize, i dont checked every move

Well it is a very similar endgame and quite decently illustrates what to watch out for as black.
  
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g3g6
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Re: Carlsen-Lagrave: Taimanov update
Reply #16 - 02/02/07 at 20:10:48
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Willempie wrote on 02/01/07 at 09:28:32:
@ g3g6
Similar endgame, but not the same position. b5 is already played in the Carlsen game. So black is a tempo down compared to that (Bd7-c6 iso b5, Bb7) as he plays b5 later anyway.

My mistake, i apologize, i dont checked every move
  
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Re: Carlsen-Lagrave: Taimanov update
Reply #15 - 02/01/07 at 09:28:32
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@ g3g6
Similar endgame, but not the same position. b5 is already played in the Carlsen game. So black is a tempo down compared to that (Bd7-c6 iso b5, Bb7) as he plays b5 later anyway.
  
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Re: Carlsen-Lagrave: Taimanov update
Reply #14 - 01/28/07 at 17:21:52
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Willempie wrote on 12/01/06 at 13:23:03:
Semko wrote on 11/24/06 at 20:52:50:
"That was a difficult game to assess as Black has a material plus, but his rooks aren't very effective, and Carlsen won very smoothly indeed! After 21...Qc5 can White simply play 22 Qxg1 - who is better in this endgame?"
I have played several blitz games. The endgame looks equal to me although Black is a bit passive. He should put his rooks on the b- and c-files, trying to activate one of them via the c-file or create some counterplay on the Q-side.

That may be a good idea. I was tempted to put them on the c and e-file, but this looks more solid. I think white has trouble gaining something if black just stays put and keep up the threats on the queenside without moving the pawns.


Endgame after 21...Qc5 is clearly in white favour. I participated some way in following correspondence game and with Mrs. Bazantova we proved that minor pieces are far better in this endgame.

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2002.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Bazantova M"]
[Black "Bocheva Margarita"]
[WhiteElo "2200"]
[BlackElo "2430"]
[ECO "B48"]
[Result "1-0"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 Qc7 6. Be3
a6 7. Bd3 Nf6 8. O-O Ne5 9. h3 Bc5 10. Kh1 d6 11. f4 Ng6
12. Qe1 O-O 13. f5 Ne5 14. Qh4 Bd7 15. Rf3 exf5 16. exf5
Nxf3 17. gxf3 Bc6 18. Rg1 Bxf3+ 19. Nxf3 Bxe3 20. Qxf6 Bxg1
21. Qg5 Qc5 22. Qxg1 Qxg1+ 23. Kxg1 Rac8 24. Kf2 Rfe8
25. Nd5 b5 26. Nd4 Kf8 27. Nb4 Ra8 28. c3 Re5 29. Be2 Rc5
30. Bf3 Ra7 31. a3 h6 32. Ke3 Rc8 33. Nd5 Rc5 34. Kd3 Rc8
35. Be4 Re8 36. h4 h5 37. Nc2 Rc8 38. Nce3 Re8 39. Kd4 Re5
40. b4 Rd7 41. c4 bxc4 42. Nxc4 Re8 43. a4 Rb8 44. Na5 0-1
  
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Re: Carlsen-Lagrave: Taimanov update
Reply #13 - 12/01/06 at 13:23:03
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Semko wrote on 11/24/06 at 20:52:50:
"That was a difficult game to assess as Black has a material plus, but his rooks aren't very effective, and Carlsen won very smoothly indeed! After 21...Qc5 can White simply play 22 Qxg1 - who is better in this endgame?"
I have played several blitz games. The endgame looks equal to me although Black is a bit passive. He should put his rooks on the b- and c-files, trying to activate one of them via the c-file or create some counterplay on the Q-side.

That may be a good idea. I was tempted to put them on the c and e-file, but this looks more solid. I think white has trouble gaining something if black just stays put and keep up the threats on the queenside without moving the pawns.
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Carlsen-Lagrave: Taimanov update
Reply #12 - 11/30/06 at 14:55:59
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But I think Black was OK, see my anlaysis to the Fress game in the June update.
  
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Re: Carlsen-Lagrave: Taimanov update
Reply #11 - 11/29/06 at 11:48:56
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Hello,

In my edition of Delchev book, first one, they only consider a game with 19Kh2. Could not find any additional information in this line, in the update file on chess stars site either.
      Another alarming game for black is
[Event "37th Olympiad"]
[Site "Turin ITA"]
[Date "2006.05.30"]
[Round "9"]
[White "Fressinet,L"]
[Black "Rublevsky,S"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2633"]
[BlackElo "2687"]
[EventDate "2006.05.21"]
[ECO "B48"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. Nc3 a6 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 Nc6 6. Be3 Nf6 7. Bd3 Qc7
8. O-O Ne5 9. h3 Bc5 10. Kh1 d6 11. f4 Ng6 12. Qe1 Bd7 13. f5 Ne5 14. Nce2
Qb6 15. Qg3 O-O 16. Qh4 Rfe8 17. b4 Qxb4 18. Rab1 Qa4 19. fxe6 fxe6 20.
Rxb7 Rab8 21. Rxb8 Rxb8 22. Qg3 Rf8 23. Nxe6 Bxe6 24. Bxc5 Nxd3 25. Bxd6
Rf7 26. Qxd3 Nxe4 27. Nd4 Rxf1+ 28. Qxf1 Bf7 29. Be5 Bxa2 30. Qf4 Bd5 31.
Bxg7 Kxg7 32. Qe5+ Nf6 33. Nf5+ Kf7 34. Nd6+ Kg6 35. Qf5+ Kg7 36. Qg5+ 1-0

In Delchev book thread, Semkov comments that they recommend always to put Bb7 to cover d5 square. This is true, but I also thought that Bd7 was a good idea once f5 was played, and e5 plan not available. At very least this is putting a back-up line for black in trouble...

Bye John S
  
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Re: Carlsen-Lagrave: Taimanov update
Reply #10 - 11/24/06 at 20:56:11
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Ptero wrote on 11/24/06 at 14:40:17:
My 2c:
I don't see why black is obliged to swap queens on g1 (after 21...Qc5 22.Qxg1).


I'm inclined to agree with you, the more I look at the endgame, the more I like it for White.
  
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Re: Carlsen-Lagrave: Taimanov update
Reply #9 - 11/24/06 at 20:52:50
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"That was a difficult game to assess as Black has a material plus, but his rooks aren't very effective, and Carlsen won very smoothly indeed! After 21...Qc5 can White simply play 22 Qxg1 - who is better in this endgame?"
I have played several blitz games. The endgame looks equal to me although Black is a bit passive. He should put his rooks on the b- and c-files, trying to activate one of them via the c-file or create some counterplay on the Q-side.
  
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Re: Carlsen-Lagrave: Taimanov update
Reply #8 - 11/24/06 at 14:40:17
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My 2c:
I don't see why black is obliged to swap queens on g1 (after 21...Qc5 22.Qxg1).

22...Rfe8!? (22...b4!? 23.Qxc5 dxc5 24.Ne4 Rfd8 25.Nxc5 Rd5) 23.Qg4 d5 and black can continue with Rad8-d6. If white inserts 24.f6 g6 than f6 might become weak, while Qh4 is answered with Qe3. The endgame arising after 24.Qd4 Qxd4 25.Nxd4 Rad8 seems better to me (from black's point of view) than the one arising after 22...Qxg1 23.Kxg1
  
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Re: Carlsen-Lagrave: Taimanov update
Reply #7 - 11/24/06 at 12:10:12
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I agree that the ending is difficult (I hate to play against knights in these type of ending). I though black should play something like Rac8, Rfe8, g6 or alternatively b4, Rfc8, Ke7, a5, a4
  
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Re: Carlsen-Lagrave: Taimanov update
Reply #6 - 11/24/06 at 11:46:44
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I'm not really sure, as in the endgame the white king is a strength rather than a weakness. I just played the endgame out a couple of times against my computer and won easily. As far as I can see Black's only plan is to double rooks on the c-file and take on c3, but White can play Nd4, a3, Ne4 (or d5) then c3, and slowly advance his king.
  
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Re: Carlsen-Lagrave: Taimanov update
Reply #5 - 11/24/06 at 11:20:47
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 11/24/06 at 10:07:21:
That was a difficult game to assess as Black has a material plus, but his rooks aren't very effective, and Carlsen won very smoothly indeed! After 21...Qc5 can White simply play 22 Qxg1 - who is better in this endgame? Undecided

That's the real question. To me it seems the endgame is better than the version with queens as in the game. For starters black doesnt need to play f6 and can immediately move his rooks. Plus I suspect the white queen is better than the black one, due to the knights.
  
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Re: Carlsen-Lagrave: Taimanov update
Reply #4 - 11/24/06 at 10:07:21
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That was a difficult game to assess as Black has a material plus, but his rooks aren't very effective, and Carlsen won very smoothly indeed! After 21...Qc5 can White simply play 22 Qxg1 - who is better in this endgame? Undecided
  
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Re: Carlsen-Lagrave: Taimanov update
Reply #3 - 11/24/06 at 09:17:06
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Plus 22. Nd4 Be3 (Qe3?) looks good to me as well.
  
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